
PCTeX Talk Discussions on TeX, LaTeX, fonts, and typesetting

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zedler
Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 15

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: spacing of mathrm 


Hello,
\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{times,mtpro2}
\begin{document}
$(\mathrm j$
\end{document}
gives touching glyphs.
Michael 

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Michael Spivak
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 52

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


zedler wrote:  Hello,
\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{times,mtpro2}
\begin{document}
$(\mathrm j$
\end{document}
gives touching glyphs.
Michael 
There's not much I can do about thatif you are using Times as the
text font, then in text (j also touches! [though $(\mathrm j$ is worse, with more overlap].
I'm wondering how this arose. Assuming that you didn't really want
\mathrm{(j ... I would guess that you are using roman letters as a set
of variables, either in addition to, or in place of, the MTPro2 italic letters.
In that case, you really would want a special font for this purpose, in the
same way that MTPro's \mathbf font has different spacing than the
Timesbold, so that subscripts and superscripts will work better. 

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zedler
Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 15

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


Quote:  There's not much I can do about thatif you are using Times as the
text font, then in text (j also touches! [though $(\mathrm j$ is worse, with more overlap].
I'm wondering how this arose. Assuming that you didn't really want
\mathrm{(j ... I would guess that you are using roman letters as a set
of variables, either in addition to, or in place of, the MTPro2 italic letters.
In that case, you really would want a special font for this purpose, in the
same way that MTPro's \mathbf font has different spacing than the
Timesbold, so that subscripts and superscripts will work better. 
Yes, I really want to typeset $\exp(\mathrm j\omega\tau=$ ;)
I suppose this can only be corrected by increasing the bracket side bearings, but your approach was to have very tight bracket side bearings and adjust/increase the spacing using kerns. This of course fails for \mathrm...
The tight bracket side bearings were also an issue in my previous example, $\[\]_{xy}$. CM, Fourier, Lucida and MnSymbol don't have this problem...
Michael 

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Michael Spivak
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 52

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


zedler wrote:  Quote:  There's not much I can do about thatif you are using Times as the
text font, then in text (j also touches! [though $(\mathrm j$ is worse, with more overlap].
I'm wondering how this arose. Assuming that you didn't really want
\mathrm{(j ... I would guess that you are using roman letters as a set
of variables, either in addition to, or in place of, the MTPro2 italic letters.
In that case, you really would want a special font for this purpose, in the
same way that MTPro's \mathbf font has different spacing than the
Timesbold, so that subscripts and superscripts will work better. 
Yes, I really want to typeset $\exp(\mathrm j\omega\tau=$ ;)
I suppose this can only be corrected by increasing the bracket side bearings, but your approach was to have very tight bracket side bearings and adjust/increase the spacing using kerns. This of course fails for \mathrm...
The tight bracket side bearings were also an issue in my previous example, $\[\]_{xy}$. CM, Fourier, Lucida and MnSymbol don't have this problem...
Michael 
Actually, I didn't, and one can't, adjust the spacing after a left parentheses or before a right parenthesis
using kerns [I mentioned this on some posting somewhere once before];
even if you put kerns into the tfm file, they are ignored because the left parenthesis is an "opening", which determines its own spacing, and similarly the right parenthesis is a "closing". I chose side bearings for
the parenthesis that worked well with the italic letters on the math italic font.
Even if that were not the case, the real problem is that
in the expression \exp(\mathrm j the ( comes from the math italic font,
while the j is coming from an entirely different font, the TimesRoman font, and TeX has no way of kerning characters in different fonts. If you
were to use some other roman font as your text font, then the problem might very well be less or much moreit would depend entirely on the left side bearing of j in that particular font.
I suspect that j is being used here as a some special character (perhaps in electrical engineering, although I thought they preferred bold j); in that case, I would just define something like \myj to give a small kern followed by jin fact, it's easier to type \myj than to type \mathrm j.
Sorry that [] doesn't work out for you, but I've never seen something like that in any mathematics paper, and since I like the way brackets work with the math italic characters in general, I wouldn't want to change the side bearings just for this special case (once again, changes couldn't be
overridden with kerns). 

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zedler
Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 15

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


Quote:  Sorry that [] doesn't work out for you, but I've never seen something like that in any mathematics paper, and since I like the way brackets work with the math italic characters in general, I wouldn't want to change the side bearings just for this special case (once again, changes couldn't be
overridden with kerns). 
I can apply manual spacings, the "\mathrm j" is stored in a macro anyway and the empty brackets I need only once. Perhaps you're interested, I've put together a collection showing how different math font setups behave in the above mentioned cases: http://www.hft.ei.tum.de/mz/mtpro2_sidebearings.pdf
Michael 

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Michael Spivak
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 52

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


Quote:  ="zedler
I can apply manual spacings, the "\mathrm j" is stored in a macro anyway and the empty brackets I need only once. Perhaps you're interested, I've put together a collection showing how different math font setups behave in the above mentioned cases: http://www.hft.ei.tum.de/mz/mtpro2_sidebearings.pdf
Michael 
Interesting.
I'd say that CM looks the worst (especially the \omega and
\tau, as well as being so thin).
Lucida is somewhat "klunky", though definitely easy to read!
(Is this Lucida or LucidaBright?) Some one mentioned that section headings are sometimes printed in sansserif,
so that a sansserif math might be nice to have; I suspect that the Lucida
greek letters would work well for that.
If \mathrm j is in a macro, then probably there should also be some space on the right; certainly needed for CM, not really needed for Lucida
or Minion, useful for Fourier and MTPro2.
By the way, what is []_{\langle6\times6\rangle} ? 

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zedler
Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 15

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


Quote:  (Is this Lucida or LucidaBright?) 
Pctex's Lucida fonts.
Quote:  By the way, what is []_{\langle6\times6\rangle} ? 
Excerpt from a paper (Deadline tomorrow Mar 30, Hawai time ;))
Code: 
\begin{document}\let\mathbf\mbf
...
Next, the impedance matrix of the outer 12port is obtained by
inverting $\mathbf{Y}^{\langle 16\times16\rangle}$ and taking the
upper left $\langle 12\times12\rangle$ submatrix
\begin{equation}
\mathbf{Z}^{\langle 12\times12\rangle}=\left[{\mathbf{Y}^{\langle 16\times16\rangle}}^{1}\right]_{\langle 12\times12\rangle}
\end{equation}
where the operator $[\,]_{\langle 12\times12\rangle}$ denotes taking
the submatrix. The $\mathbf Z^{\langle 6\times 6\rangle}=\mathbf Z$
matrix of the outer sixport is obtained by 
Perhaps not the best notation, do you have a better idea? BTW, quite funny that both you and my boss are aficionados of differential forms ;)
Wish you wedge and hodge,
Michael 

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Michael Spivak
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 52

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: spacing of mathrm 


zedler wrote: 
Excerpt from a paper (Deadline tomorrow Mar 30, Hawai time ;))
Code: 
\begin{document}\let\mathbf\mbf
...
Next, the impedance matrix of the outer 12port is obtained by
inverting $\mathbf{Y}^{\langle 16\times16\rangle}$ and taking the
upper left $\langle 12\times12\rangle$ submatrix
\begin{equation}
\mathbf{Z}^{\langle 12\times12\rangle}=\left[{\mathbf{Y}^{\langle 16\times16\rangle}}^{1}\right]_{\langle 12\times12\rangle}
\end{equation}
where the operator $[\,]_{\langle 12\times12\rangle}$ denotes taking
the submatrix. The $\mathbf Z^{\langle 6\times 6\rangle}=\mathbf Z$
matrix of the outer sixport is obtained by 
Perhaps not the best notation, do you have a better idea? BTW, quite funny that both you and my boss are aficionados of differential forms ;)
Wish you wedge and hodge,
Michael 
Not really, but I would probably have used something like UL_{\langle
12\times\12\rangle}(...) with U and L roman (or perhaps bold). And I
probably would actually have used something like UL_{[12]}, with
the idea that for square matrices [12] would mean \langle12\times12\rangle. 

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